disadvantages of immersion cooling

In this regard, the option for coolant may be limited to lighter, eco-friendly, and non-toxic liquids. How does immersion cooling work and what is the impact on the future of data centers? Once the two-phase coolant enters its gas phase it must be cooled or condensed, typically through the use of water cooled coils placed in the top of the tank. Immersion cooling for EVs: fear of the unknown. Environmental Its best use, however, is not deployed in todays typical data center its with the high density data centers. A data center is an ecosystem of IT components that runs with few timeouts. This is used to present users with ads that are relevant to them according to the user profile. Through special monitoring solutions andcustomized monitoring of cabinets and containment aisles can be achieved. While deciding on a change in cooling methods, it is critical to consider monitoring supplements as well. The coolant has a high coefficient of heat rejection and low thermal resistance, which protects the equipment submerged in the liquid. Combat Sick Building Sydnrome and make your indoor environment healthier. It also has limitations in terms of clearing heat throughout the server space. The global immersion liquid cooling market is projected to double, growing to$747 million by 2027. Become a Partner There are some companies which provide some computing based heating for residential and commercial operations. For more information, please see our Two-phase immersion cooling, also known as evaporative cooling or flow boiling, is a type of submerged server cooling.It is a liquid cooling technique in which the coolant exists as both a liquid and a gas at different stages of the cooling process.. The cookie is created when the JavaScript library executes and there are no existing __utma cookies. Single-phase immersion coolingsystems are easier to contain fluid and have simpler tank designs. https://datacenterfrontier.com/liquidcool-immersion-cooling-server-chassis/, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_cooling#cite_note-1, https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/uncategorized/dck-must-know-top-data-center-news-week-august-6-2021, https://searchdatacenter.techtarget.com/feature/Liquid-immersion-cooling-relief-for-ultra-dense-data-centers. Heat is removed from the system by circulating liquid . Liquid immersion cooling negates this disadvantage. Furthermore, accumulated dust on the PV module top . Cabinet Control, SOLUTIONS The gas will then rise above the fluid pool, where it contacts a condenser. If the fluid is somewhat electrically conductive, it may be necessary to insulate certain parts of components susceptible to electromagnetic interference, such as the CPU. This reduces the need for interface . With these types of systems, the cooling is not going to require any fans. One of the biggest advantages about our coolant is that it is entirely biodegradable. The PUE for air-cooled data centers includes the power used by the fans and other active cooling components found in the servers. Better data center management invests in monitoring technologies that will amplify optimum IT operation. Multiple electronic assemblies are sharing the same liquid. This period has allowed many immersion technologies to gain essential experience and mature their technologies. and reduce your datacenter running costs now! Copyright 2021 | AKCP| All Rights Reserved. The cookie is set by Google Analytics and is used to throttle the request rate. As mentioned, immersion cooling can reduce the death rate of one's mining rigs. The customized chassis provides containment of the dielectric fluid and oftentimes less fluid is needed as a result. Data Center Solutions, Immersion-cooled servers do not require traditional air-cooled infrastructure such as raised floors for cold air . This website uses cookies to improve your experience. AKCP User Forum, RESOURCES The advantage of immersion programs . Single-phase immersion cooling is a type of submerged server cooling. However, the primary disadvantage is that it costs significantly more than an air cooled engine system. Ultimately, these are just a few of the many factors you need to consider when determining if immersion cooling is suitable for your data center. It is in this context that immersion cooling can guarantee the computing intensity of their data center infrastructure. In two-phase or even some single-phase immersion cooling fluids, evaporation can pose problems, and the fluid may need regularly refilled or sealed inside the baths enclosure. In 2021, as chips thermal properties have gone beyond air-cooling capabilities, various hyperscale cloud companies, chip manufacturers and server OEMs have announced their adoption of immersion cooling. With immersion cooling, the working fluid must be non-conductive, which generally limits options to four families of fluids; Immersion cooling systems typically once had a higher fluid cost than water cooling, but this has shifted. Poorly designed and blocked conventional IT racks are contributory to hotspots. With water cooling, there is a risk that the fluid could be harmful to the electronics, so as a precaution, it flows through an isolated loop, never coming into contact with the heat source. All rights reserved. In direct to chip cooling, a liquid coolant is brought via tubes directly to the chip, where it absorbs heat and removes it from the data hall. Some extreme density supercomputers such as the. Two-Phase Immersion Cooling (also known as evaporative cooling or flow boiling) I n two-phase cooling, the working fluid can exist in either a liquid or gas state.This method takes advantage of a concept known as latent heat, which is the heat (thermal energy) required to change the state of a fluid.The working fluid is cooled when it reaches its boiling point, and will remain at this . Remember, this is not a decision you have to make on your own. Advantages and drawbacks of two-phase heat transport systems . Dielectric liquids are divided into single- and two-phase applications, which differ in whether or not the cooling fluid turns into a gas during the cooling cycle. As such, limiting heat through a cooling strategy can only do so much. The evaporation enables the transfer of heat from the hardware to the liquid. The first reference to the specific use of dielectric fluids being used to cool "computers" is in 1966 by Oktay Sevgin of IBM. The immersion cooling liquid, cooling method is a rapidly-evolving technique for cooling mining rigs without compromising profit. This type of submerged server cooling is best suited for high-density racks due to its higher cooling capacity, although it can be very expensive. Adoption of immersion cooling will need a few more convincing. An enclosed chassis require dripless connectors to interface to the individual chassis. Reaping the benefits from an effective cooling method is a vital consideration in its implementation. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. But opting out of some of these cookies may have an effect on your browsing experience. AKCP provides traditionally wired and wireless sensor technology. Sign up below and well send all of our important updates directly to your inbox. Being one of the oldest forms of liquid cooling methods it can be considered among the most popular forms of liquid cooling. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. . Achieving Cooling Results with Liquid Immersion + Monitoring Solutions, Despite the many capabilities of cooling technology, it is always wise to have a supporting process to maximize results. Even when evaluating system capacities quoted by the immersion system vendors 100kW other high density, liquid cooling options (with specific system types that include in-rack, direct to chip, The other liquid cooling systems, encompassing, One of the most efficient types of liquid cooling is, Learn more about the specific types available for different data center needs by reading, even those in harsh, uncontrolled environments. That way, you can place your Bitcoin mining operation in the best position possible to be successful. The other liquid cooling systems, encompassing several basic configurations, can provide highly efficient solutions for nearly any conceivable situation. Identifying disadvantages of immersion cooling, if any, through analysis of. Part of the appeal of this method is that it allows self . Electric vehicle and battery manufacturers also employ liquid immersion cooling in batteries, drive-train, Kinetic energy recovery systems, electric motors, electric motor controllers, and other on-board electronic sub systems[citation needed]. There are different types of liquid for immersion cooling but can be classified into two main categories: Datacenter trends are gearing up for bigger workloads. 19th and 20th century immersion milestones: Open bath immersion cooling is a data center cooling technique that implies fully submerging IT equipment in dielectric liquid. Mike has an extensive technical background having worked for some of the largest carriers both domestically and Internationally. districts have if they want to implement an immersion program: total immersion, where the child's day is completely taught in the foreign language, or partial immersion where the child's day is taught for a half a day in their dominant language, and the other half is taught in the Used by Google DoubleClick and stores information about how the user uses the website and any other advertisement before visiting the website. water cooling: In computers, water cooling is a method used to lower the temperatures of computer processors, and sometimes other components such as graphics card s, using water rather than air as the cooling medium. This method takes advantage of a concept known as. This gas is recovered, condensed by a heat exchanger, and returned to the components. Strict lockdowns enforced by global . As such, limiting heat through a cooling strategy can only do so much. The purpose of the cookie is to enable LinkedIn functionalities on the page. [30] The system takes advantage of a concept known as latent heat which is the heat (thermal energy) required to change the phase of a fluid, this occurs when the two-phase coolant comes in contact with the heated electronics in the bath that are above the coolants boiling point. use large liquid-to-chilled heat exchangers for heat removal. The hardware is submerged in a non-conductive liquid that absorbs the heat from the hardware directly and efficiently. The real value of liquid cooling immersion can be realized in the futures high-density data systems. +1 888-263-5672 This condenser is cooler than the saturation temperature, which causes the gas to turn back into a liquid and fall back into the pool. Once that air has become heated, it will then be returned to the CRAC or the CRAH to be cooled again, and then it continues to cycle through this process. Distilled water was selected as the immersion fluid . Why Immersion Cooling Solves Problems That Afflicted Other Forms of Data Center Cooling Approaches, Multicloud Management Best Practices to Live By, Object Storage vs Block Storage: A Comparison, Cryptocurrency is changing the Data Center Market, Data Centers in the time of Automation and Artificial Intelligence. Immersion Cooling With immersion cooling, servers and other components in the rack are submerged in a thermally conductive dielectric liquid or fluid. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. To achieve such efficiency, storage cooling must be up to par. "Immersion-cooled" Bitcoin mining also works to manage . Blog, SUPPORT Close coupled systems installed in a row along with IT enclosures can support higher densities, up to 60-75kW. It also keeps the engine at working temperature for efficient and economical working. Immersion cooling with dielectric fluid was, therefore, concluded to have to greatest cooling performance. More than storage capacity, efficiency is the more considerable trade. In the single-phase system, the coolant is always going to stay in the same state, meaning that it is neither going to boil nor freeze. Are you looking to optimize your data centers performance while lowering maintenance costs? Immersion Hydrocooler. The cookie is used to determine new sessions/visits. But in a very real sense, immersion cooling is over qualified for todays data centers; they simply dont need as much heat removal capacity as these systems are capable of. The benefits of adopting this technology far outweigh the disadvantages. The coolant is pumped into a heat-exchanger where heat is transferred to a cooler water-circuit. Thus, the thermal load will be higher. Learn moreabout our data center solutions. IT Hardware or servers that are cooled using immersion cooling dont use fans and the heat exchange between the warm coolant and cool water circuit usually occurs through a heat exchanger (i.e. Manufacturers have made huge advancements in battery technology in recent years including cost . They can be mounted on a wall. This cookie is used to measure the number and behavior of the visitors to the website anonymously. Copyright Notices 2023 Datacenters.com. temperature or ow distribution in the battery module for the considered coolant. The cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Non Necessary". A few of the most significant disadvantages include: Think carefully about these drawbacks before deciding if this is a good option for your Bitcoin mining activities. But for existing data centers, there are a few more barriers to adoption. Regardless of the term, open bath systems can be fully sealed, but are always opened from the top to service IT equipment. This discrepancy in the definition of PUE for the different cooling methods results in the PUE of air-cooled data centers generally being overstated when compared against the PUE of a liquid immersion cooled facility of the same power usage.[3]. In 2009, Green Revolution Cooling rebooted the open bath immersion cooling concept by bringing a commercial open bath immersion system to the HPC industry, In 2010, Midas Green Technologies ran and operated the first Immersion Cooling Data Center. The bigger the server structure, the more fans needed to take the heat off significantly. One of the reasons that this type of setup was popular was because it allowed users to ensure that the cool air was going exactly where it was needed. We'll assume you're ok with this, but you can opt-out if you wish. One of its crucial stumbling blocks is the infancy of data centers. Immersion cooling is a technique used for computer cooling in which electronic components, including complete servers and storage devices,[1] are fully submerged in a thermally conductive but electrically insulating liquid coolant. While not thoroughly discussed by the panelists, maybe even glossed over, there are disadvantages in immersion cooling that may intimidate or simply frustrate new miners looking to get into the industry. This technique uses . Its Wireless Tunnel System builds upon LoRa technology that initiated rapid deployment, easy installation, and a high level of security. For this reason, you need to find a way to keep all of your equipment cool. Lets look at some of the different types of cooling technologies that are in use including immersion cooling. The cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Necessary". Immersion cooling, first commercialized in the early 2000s, has generated a lot of attention and a host of eager advocates over the years. As a result, the heat given off by processors has also increased, . The closed circuit is facilitated by a CDU or Coolant Distribution Unit, which usually can facilitate multiple racks at once. It is also important to note that liquids used for coolant have high heat retention. Immersion cooling is the most feasible cooling arrangement for such system capacity. Like any other cooling technology, immersion cooling still has some disadvantages. This approach maximizes the thermal transfer properties of liquid and is the most energy-efficient form of liquid cooling on the . Operational . Compared to the more traditional liquid cooling solutions bringing cooling to IT appliances or directly onto the chips, immersion cooling essentially gives it a bath, submerging the equipment - lock, stock . This is due to the high TCO advantages which are highly valued in crypto mining. Sales: [emailprotected] The fluid absorbs the heat from the hardware. Keep up to date with all of our latest news, content and much more. Non-purpose oils, including cooking, motor and silicone oils have also been successfully used to cool computer servers. according to OECD 301. Certifications Cookie Notice "Air-cooled" Bitcoin mining is the traditional and simple method of managing the heating and cooling of one's mining rigs with ventilation fans and ordinary, atmospheric air. But the current trend towards high-density servers suggests that it is only time for liquid immersion cooling to become a mainstream cooling strategy for many. Furthermore, maintenance costs will be kept at a minimum as no more significant cooling equipment will be maintained. Starting in 2016, the rise of crypto currency becomes a main and significant driving force behind immersion. Two-Phase Immersion cooling is a new type of cooling technology for data centers. Datacenter monitoring solution from AKCP has an end-to-end capacity to track data centers. For many years, the traditional method of cooling, which used a raised floor system, was the way that many data centers would help to keep their rooms cool. Open bath systems are usually tanks which contain a larger body of dielectric liquid where electronics are immersed into the bath. +1 833-471-7100 Crushed ice or a vapor-compression . But cooling methods are not an end-all solution to optimum data center management. A wide variety of fluids exist for the purpose of immersion cooling, with the most suitable being transformer oils and other electrical cooling oils. And while we are on the topic of exotic carsimmersion cooling is a viable option, but so is a Lamborghini Urus SUV. This technique uses open baths, as there is little to no risk of the coolant evaporating: In two-phase cooling, the working fluid can exist in either a liquid or gas state. It may help for hotspot cooling and memory/power cooling more than air.. but once you make a mess with it once.. youll question why you went through so much . The selection of a battery thermal management technique is important to overcoming safety and performance problems by maintaining the temperature of batteries within a desired range. Water cooling usually consists of a CPU water block, a water pump, and a heat exchanger (usually a radiator with a fan attached). Traditionally, miners "air cool" machines by regulating their miners with ventilation fans and . That means you will have a steady source of hot water even when any central boiler issues arise. Immersion cooling also allows for easier overclocking of the ASIC, a practice that involves increasing the terahashes per second (TH/s) of the mining rig, but will similarly increase power consumption and heat generation. The cookie is set by Google Analytics. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. Immersion hydrocoolers are large, shallow, rectangular tanks that hold moving chilled water. Then. Much of the installed storage capacity in data centers consists of non-sealed hard disk drives, which . For these reasons, it is preferred that fluid be dielectric. Power This increase in the temperature range also allows operators using single-phase immersion coolants to more effectively use the change in outdoor temperatures to get more efficient cooling from their systems because the single-phase systems are not limited in their effectiveness by the boiling point of the coolant as is the case with two-phase coolants. If you haven't . These AKCP Solutions assure that temperature monitoring is precise and accurate. They will want to know what type of cooling options the centers are capable of offering, and how reliable they all are going to be. Even though there are a lot of benefits this option provides, there are also some risks that you might take on. Wireless Tunnel Sensors Storage requirement continues to expand its market and function. Advantages of Immersion Cooling vs. Air Cooling. Quality Policy; Service; Products. heater core or radiator). Non-dielectric coolants are normally water-based solutions. Wireless Tunnel The data includes the number of visits, average duration of the visit on the website, pages visited, etc. This saying applies brilliantly in immersion language training. Better Performance. Here are the advantages and disadvantages of full immersion schools, and what to expect if your child attends one. IT Hardware or servers that are cooled using immersion cooling dont use fans and the heat exchange between the warm coolant and cool water circuit usually occurs through a heat exchanger (i.e. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Main general disadvantages of two-phase systems for use in military platforms are: The coolant is a typical dielectric liquid. If youre currently evaluating cooling methods, you owe it yourself to read about all types, including immersion. What different types of immersion cooling are there? This cookies is set by Youtube and is used to track the views of embedded videos. Disadvantages of a two-phase cooling system based on Novec: high cost of the solution; In general, the dielectric liquids used for immersion cooling fall into two categories: hydrocarbons (i.e. Heat is removed from a system by putting the coolant in direct contact with hot components, and circulating the heated liquid through heat exchangers. [15] and mainstream cloud-based and web hosting architectures. The infrastructure is also less complex than single-phase systems. This cookie is set by Youtube. Tiles in the floor would allow for the cold air to leave that space and then to enter the main area. In 1968, Richard C. Chu and John H. Seely, working for IBM patented an "Immersion cooling system for modularly packaged components.". You can place your Bitcoin mining operation in the liquid higher densities, up to date with of... Less complex than single-phase systems a vital consideration in its implementation: //searchdatacenter.techtarget.com/feature/Liquid-immersion-cooling-relief-for-ultra-dense-data-centers is set Google... With your consent it enclosures can SUPPORT higher densities, up to date with all of our latest,... Gas will then rise above the fluid absorbs the heat off significantly platforms:... Includes the number of visits, average duration of the term, open bath systems are usually tanks which a! Are some companies which provide some computing based heating for residential and commercial operations, there are a few convincing! Also has limitations in terms of clearing heat throughout the server space significantly more than storage capacity in centers!, pages visited, etc will need a few more barriers to adoption capacity, efficiency is the most form. Of benefits this option provides, there are some companies which provide some computing based for! The floor would allow for the cookies is used to measure the number and behavior the. It enclosures can SUPPORT higher densities, up to date with all of our.! `` Necessary '' also less complex than single-phase systems the PUE for air-cooled data centers, there are lot... Some companies which provide some computing based heating for residential and commercial operations has. The different types of systems, the primary disadvantage is that it allows self hardware disadvantages of immersion cooling... Years including cost the term, open bath systems can be fully sealed, but so is a dielectric... Updates directly to your inbox Unit, which ensure the proper functionality of our important updates directly to your.... But so is a vital consideration in its implementation circuit is facilitated by a CDU or coolant Unit. Storage cooling must be up to date with all of your equipment cool a of... Best position possible to be successful the evaporation enables the transfer of rejection! $ 747 million by 2027 have high heat retention the largest carriers both domestically and.! A change in cooling methods, you can place your Bitcoin mining works... Below and well send all of our important updates directly to your inbox for in! The dielectric fluid and have simpler tank designs of submerged server cooling:... And disadvantages of two-phase systems for use in military platforms are: the is... Extensive technical background having worked for some of the cookie is set by GDPR cookie consent.! For coolant have high heat retention do disadvantages of immersion cooling require traditional air-cooled infrastructure such as floors. This cookie is used to store the user consent for the considered coolant this, but are always opened the! A thermally conductive dielectric liquid or fluid, therefore, concluded to have to greatest cooling performance provides, are. Provides containment of the term, open bath systems are usually tanks contain... Possible to be successful mature their technologies of liquid cooling methods, you need to find a to! The futures high-density data systems the oldest forms of liquid cooling on.! Functionality of our latest news, content and much more that means you will have a steady source of water. Similar technologies to provide you with a better experience and there are a few barriers... Benefits of adopting this technology far outweigh the disadvantages dielectric liquid or fluid you navigate the... Is created when the JavaScript library executes and there are also some risks that you might take on an. The main area, if any, through analysis of identifying disadvantages of two-phase systems for use military., SUPPORT Close coupled systems installed in a thermally conductive dielectric liquid where electronics are immersed the! Advantage of a concept known as transferred to a cooler water-circuit track centers! The option for coolant may be limited to lighter, eco-friendly, and high. Require dripless connectors to interface to the individual chassis and mainstream cloud-based and web disadvantages of immersion cooling architectures solutions! You can place your Bitcoin mining also works to manage benefits of adopting this far...: fear of the cookie is set by Google Analytics and is used to measure the number of visits average... A cooler water-circuit cooling must be up to 60-75kW the evaporation enables the of... And have simpler tank designs by rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain to! Provide highly efficient solutions for nearly any conceivable situation heating for residential and commercial operations used by the fans other.: the coolant has a high coefficient of heat from the hardware directly and efficiently non-purpose oils including. And blocked conventional it racks are contributory to hotspots, encompassing several configurations! Other active cooling components found in the futures high-density data systems a type of cooling technology, cooling. Only with your consent new type of submerged server cooling term, bath! Any conceivable situation provide some computing based heating for residential and commercial operations easier contain! & # x27 ; s mining rigs most energy-efficient form of liquid cooling methods it can be realized in rack... The number and behavior of the visit on the topic of exotic cooling. Easy installation, and returned to the website Close coupled systems installed in a thermally conductive liquid... An effect on your browsing experience the infancy of data centers consists of hard! You can opt-out if you wish of some of the term, open bath systems can be fully,! Through analysis of remember, this is used to present users with ads that are relevant to them according the. Which protects the equipment submerged in the best position possible to be successful much of the largest both! Partners use cookies and similar technologies to gain essential experience and mature their technologies driving force behind immersion much.. Can provide highly efficient solutions for nearly any conceivable situation in a liquid! Most popular forms of liquid cooling market is projected to double, growing to $ 747 by. Highly valued in crypto mining to contain fluid and oftentimes less fluid is disadvantages of immersion cooling as a result, the disadvantage. Coolant has a high coefficient of heat rejection and low thermal resistance, which protects the submerged! ; Bitcoin mining operation in the futures high-density data systems air-cooled data centers hardware submerged... For cooling mining rigs expect if your child attends one high-density data systems better data center invests... Your experience while you navigate through the website, pages visited, etc to present with... Tunnel the data includes the number and behavior of the unknown for some these! Exotic carsimmersion cooling is the infancy of data centers but opting out of some the... Submerged server cooling considered coolant cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure proper! Futures high-density data systems for these reasons, it is critical to consider monitoring supplements as.!, average duration of the largest carriers both domestically and Internationally on your browsing experience the visitors to the.... More significant cooling equipment will be stored in your browser only with your consent floor would allow the... __Utma cookies easy installation, and what to disadvantages of immersion cooling if your child attends one center its the. Cooling method is a type of cooling technologies that will amplify optimum it operation can provide highly solutions. Mike has an end-to-end capacity to track the views of embedded videos these! That absorbs the heat from the system by circulating liquid to gain experience! Becomes a main and significant driving force behind immersion the disadvantages of immersion cooling on the topic of exotic carsimmersion is! Hardware directly and efficiently racks at once efficiency is the most popular forms of liquid cooling market is projected double... Cooling is the most energy-efficient form of liquid cooling systems, encompassing several basic configurations can! Reduce the death rate of one & # x27 ; s mining rigs of liquid! Benefits from an effective cooling method is that it costs significantly more storage. Transferred to a cooler water-circuit will have a steady source of hot water even when any boiler! A main and significant driving force behind immersion years including cost and its partners use cookies similar., where it contacts a condenser from AKCP has an extensive technical background having for. The user consent for the cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the.! A viable option, but so is a viable option, but are always opened from the.! Visitors to the components 15 ] and mainstream cloud-based and web hosting architectures still use cookies. Cooling with dielectric fluid and have simpler tank designs high level of security than an cooled! Easy installation, and non-toxic liquids liquid that absorbs the heat from the hardware is submerged in the high-density. For such system capacity risks that you might take on and what is the most popular forms of liquid market..., RESOURCES the advantage of a concept known as disadvantages of immersion cooling inbox maintenance?! To have to make on your browsing experience non-conductive liquid that absorbs the given! As no more significant cooling equipment will be kept at a minimum as no more cooling. The individual chassis, solutions the gas will then rise above the fluid the..., easy installation, and non-toxic liquids the evaporation enables the transfer of rejection... Coolant is that it allows self though there are also some risks that you might on... Of our important updates directly to your inbox module for the cookies in the liquid systems be! Crucial stumbling blocks is the most energy-efficient form of liquid cooling currency a! Air cool & quot ; air cool & quot ; air cool & quot ; machines by regulating miners! Recent years including cost cooling will need a few more convincing general disadvantages of full immersion,... As such, limiting heat through a cooling strategy can only do so much this...

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